Wine, Women, And Revolution

Hosted ByHeather Warburton

Marx, Firefly, and Joss Whedon

New Jersey Revolution Radio
Marx, Firefly, and Joss Whedon

In this episode of Wine, Women, and Revolution, Heather interviews Philosophy professor and author James Rocha about his analysis of Anarchism, Communism, Libertarianism, and the greatest science fiction show ever produced, Joss Whedon’s “Firefly”

James Rocha 0:00
Two times that they have a conversation where Shepherd Book asks Captain Mal why he did the right thing on different occasions, and there’s always that conflict where Mal sees himself in a certain libertarian vein but then he does the right thing in a way that libertarians can’t analyze within their morals their limited moral system, and Mal never is able to answer why he does the right things.

Heather Warburton 0:32
This is Wine Women and Revolution with your host Heather Warburton coming at you here on New Jersey revolution Radio. Hi and welcome to Wine Women and Revolution. I’m your host Heather Warburton coming at you here on New Jersey Revolution Radio. You can find us online, follow us on all the social medias and get us wherever you get your podcasts. I’ve been so excited about today’s episode, since I booked it like months ago, because I get to really geek out in this episode. Because when I’m not out there fighting for a socialist, socialist revolution in the streets, I’m a huge Joss Whedon. You can only imagine how excited I was to find my guests for today’s show. With Joining me today is James Rocha, welcome to the show.

James Rocha 1:27
Thank you very much. I’m happy to be here.

Heather Warburton 1:29
And you’re a philosophy professor at Fresno State. And in your class, you mention what is as I just said before the interview began the best science fiction TV show I think ever made, which is Firefly.

James Rocha 1:43
And I think I would agree with you. I do think it’s the best science fiction show ever made.

Heather Warburton 1:49
But before we get into the meat of the episode, you did say you wanted to give a disclaimer because I did mention where your professor and you need to give a little disclaimer.

James Rocha 1:57
Yeah, yeah, I just want to say something, I am an assitant Professor at Fresno State, but all views are my own and I don’t represent Fresno State. I’m sure they have their own views on Firefly.

Heather Warburton 2:07
So you definitely have a fairly interesting spin on it when you teach it. And then a lot of people when I talked to them about Firefly, they definitely say it’s kind of mirrors libertarianism, because it talks a lot about freedoms. And even in the theme song, it talks about freedom, which usually in my opinion, just means fucking people over for your own benefit. But you kind of say it’s more of an anarchist spin, or I’ll even take it and say it’s an anarcho communist place, and that there’s a really lot of strong critiques of capitalism in the show. But before I kind of get into your analysis or my analysis of the show, I want to ask you, how did you make the decision to work Firefly into your philosophy class?

James Rocha 2:50
In a way, the answer just goes back to what you were just saying. I was reading the literature on Firefly, and there seems to be a consensus that it’s a libertarian show. And my first reaction just my personal reaction was, how could I be liking it so much? If it’s a libertarian show? There’s something wrong here this this can’t be a libertarian show, because it fits with my sensibilities too well. Then my second reaction is, but that’s also true of Joss Whedon. He’s not a libertarian. So I started questioning what why do people think it’s a libertarian show? I wanted to read what everyone was saying. And then I started thinking this this although it’s true, that that Jayne Cobb is definitely a libertarian. I in in my book, or the book I wrote with my wife, which is called “Joss Whedon, Anarchist”, we argue that Jayne Cobb is probably a Randian right? I think Jayne Cobb can go all the way to the far Ayn Rand right. But and Malcolm Reynolds who’s of course the star of the show, he’s a libertarian. He’s not I wouldn’t say he’s a Randian but he’s a libertarian and so

Heather Warburton 2:52

James Rocha 3:42
We can discuss that but I can see it. I can see why people think that that Mal is a libertarian but none of the other characters are. I think the point of the show is to have a story arc that goes from here’s a captain who’s a libertarian at the start of the show, but he’s going to develop and he’s going to find out that his libertarian sensibilities are probably overlapping with anarchist sensibilities and in fact, eventually grow. That’s why I think the story is about, it’s the growth of a character from libertarian to anarchist, that’s how I look at Captain Mal.

Heather Warburton 4:41
Okay, I’ll go along with that a little. Um, I guess maybe we should start in with defining some of the things how do you define libertarianism? How do you define anarchism? And since I’m going to go there, you know, see how we kind of match up on I would say anarcho communism is where I would take it, which is more of a Kropotkin kind of communism than like a Stalinist sort of communism. So do you wanna give me a quick couple of quick definitions just so everybody’s up to speed with what we’re talking about here.

James Rocha 5:13
So, I think this is really hard when you’re defining your opponent because I want to be fair to libertarians, but also, I have to be careful about this because I should let them define themselves to a certain extent. But this is what I would say, I argue that libertarians have three main components to their philosophy. One is self ownership. The second is ownership of property. And the third is consent. And I kind of see libertarians as people who view anything else besides those three, those three rules to not be required. So you can do anything you want, provided that you don’t interfere with someone’s self ownership. property and consent. So libertarians have very limited view of what’s morally required, and therefore a very strong view of what’s allowed. And so they have a sense of freedom. That’s a sense of do anything you want, as long as you don’t violate these very straightforward, simple rules. So that’s how I would look at Libertarians.

Heather Warburton 6:22
That’s a very kind definition of a libertarian. I personally might call them self centered jerks, but you’re a better person than me. Let’s move on to the next term of anarchism.

James Rocha 6:35
So I think so in my class I distinguish left anarchists from right anarchists. I admit that anarchist capitalists call themselves anarchists, and they have their reason for thinking they’re anarchists. But left anarchists think that the anarchist capitalist clearly can’t be. So. I say that the most straightforward the simplest definition of anarchism is the belief that there can be no justified state where the state is, is a power structure, not a government per se, but the ability to have power from above.

And of course, where the right anarchists the anarchist capitalist say they’re the only anarchists. They said that from the perspective of, well, if we can’t have our money and do anything we want with it, then we’re being…then powers being used against us. Whereas on the other side, the left anarchists, which is a wide range of anarchists, and includes: the anarchist communist, anarchist collectivist and anarchists syndicalists, and the anarchist feminists, of course, what they’re going to say is, if you have a capitalist system, then the bosses become the state because the bosses have total power. And so if we’re trying to avoid power, then the only true anarchism is going to be on the left, and then we’re going to quibble about all the details because that’s where it gets fun. But, so I take it that anarchism is about avoiding the hierarchy, avoiding the power, which means avoiding patriarchy, which means avoiding, you know, all these other forms of hierarchy and not just government hierarchy.

Heather Warburton 8:13
All right, and I would, you know, further expand upon communism, and a lot of people will think of Stalinism when we’re talking about communism but in communism, there is no money there is no state all power. It’s a very, it’s, I would say, the most pure form of democracy, because everything is agreed upon collectively. So there isn’t really the state also under communism, that’s, you know, most communists that I’m friends with “smash the state” is kind of one of the slogans of communism. So that’s why I think communism fits well into this discussion as well. Not Stalinism, which is a totally different thing. But actual real true communism goes along in this same line of thinking.

James Rocha 8:53
Exactly. And that’s why there’s this debate among leftists, anarchists, and sometimes we on the far left, can can start fighting each other over small things, but but those small things end up being really important too. So we might have anarchist collectivist might believe there can be money under anarchism, but the money can’t buy you anything that would give you power. So maybe, maybe that’s okay, maybe that’s not okay. But these are not as important as should there be unregulated capitalism.

Heather Warburton 9:25
Right, right. Yeah. And some, you know, although I lean more towards communism, some of my best friends are real, like, you know, just left anarchists and we, you know, we always say, “Well, you know, we’ll work out our squabbles over a pile of dead bourgeoisie.” You know, let’s take down capitalism first, and then we’ll work it out. So I guess I want to talk a little bit about Firefly in general, and this would be my sort of take on it. In essence, the crew of Serenity are space pirates. That’s kind of I think, even how Joss Whedon would describe them.

And although piracy is certainly not a perfect description of communism, because you can’t have communism on just one boat, but pirates kind of …you can disagree with me. I’ll throw it to you, once I finish this… are kind of communist. And here’s why I would say this, everyone sort of divides up the loot and gets a relatively equal share, the captain gets a little more. But you know, the wealth inequality is kind of, you know, not drastic, and the crew effectively do choose their captain, because if you’re a bad captain, you end up on the wrong end of the plank. So I think piracy like you can view piracy in general from a little bit of a communist angle. What do you think about my take on it. You’re laughing at me…

James Rocha 10:53
This, this is a fair question and there’s always going to be these questions on how do small ,we’ll call them societies, even though we might be talking about one ship, but how do small societies start to form their own systems? And one of the things we tend to take for granted because we’ve been raised in a capitalist mindset is that there has to be a leader, there has to be a hierarchy. Whereas it’s not clear that small societies function that way. And so it, I think, things to tend to it when things happen more naturally, things tend towards and and this is me kind of going back to Kropotkin in a certain way, and asking what, what are the natural formations of societies? Versus what are the formations that we assume, based on the capitalist upbringings that we all have? And so I think there is something to if we’re going to form a pirate boat, it’s going to make a lot more sense to run it in an anarchist fashion. And that’s because we need to make sure we’re going to survive out in the world that doesn’t want us to survive. And the best method of survival is not going to be hierarchy, because then you have one leader who might be an idiot. And if you’re following an idiot in a do or die situation, you’re going to more often than not end up dying.

So I think there’s something to that idea. Now, the question is, are real pirates going to be more towards anarchist formation or more towards falling into the traps of hierarchy and capitalist? That’s, of course a really hard question. And if I can just connect it to the show real quick. I think this is that the constant internal conflict that Captain Mal is going towards, right? He’s always referring to it as this is my this is my ship. Right? This is this is my boat, and he feels they don’t have a freakin democracy because it his and then so he has that kind of libertarian bent that boat, he runs it. But at the same time the others don’t seem even though they kind of give in to him. They’re constantly challenging that. And they’re constantly bringing it back to democracy. And so I see that as the conflict of the show where Mal is going to have to grow to find, to find level, a level playing field with the others who are already thinking in a more anarchist mindset.

Heather Warburton 13:22
Yeah, I would say that’s a fairly good take. And I hadn’t really thought of it from that growth aspect as far as now, but I definitely now that you’ve mentioned that I can see where, you know, I think even in one episode did say this isn’t a democracy. I can’t remember what exact episode it was. I think… I don’t remember what it was. It was it was like, Can we vote on killing this person? And he’s like, No, we don’t vote on my ship. Um, so I want to go back to something you said before. Let’s talk a little bit about Jayne as a character because yeah, he’s probably the most classic definition of libertarianism, but he’s not really viewed in a favorable light all the time on this show. You know, he’s the butt of the joke frequently

James Rocha 14:11

Heather Warburton 14:11
in this show. So do you want to talk a little bit about Jayne as a character? Why you say, you know if anybody isn’t watching the show or isn’t an uber fan like we both seem to be. In what ways does Jayne represent libertarianism? And how does the show actually view Jayne?

James Rocha 14:29
So, I think I agree completely with you, Jayne is, like I said, I think he’s the farthest into libertarianism. He’s, I think he’s a Randian. And I think and he shows this over and over again, where, one very memorable moment is when they’re, they’re voting… and they are voting in this instance… on whether, this is in “Heart of Gold” when they’re voting to whether to go help this this group of people who are under attack and Jayne says he doesn’t see the point because they’re not going to get paid. And then he’s told, but they’re prostitutes. And then he suddenly is like, Okay, let’s go do it. An this is horrible, in an obvious way. But it also represents who Jayne is. He has to see the profit in any endeavor. And he says that, he says, I have to see the profit. And so and in this case, he sees the profit in them being and I use the word prostitutes because in “Heart of Gold”, they’re represented as they’re not the kind of sex workers who are protected. Like, Inara is, so Jayne is going to abuse them and exploit their situation. And he’s very happy about that. He’s very proud of it. And that’s something where I think we’re supposed to as the audience just be disgusted by Jayne. But yet there’s so many scholars are reading this and thinking, Jayne represents what the show is about and I just can’t understand that given that he is a bit of a disgusting character.

Heather Warburton 16:04
Right. And this is a sort of off the out of the realm of the show. But there’s one scene where Jayne gets this hat in the mail and it’s a very silly hat. And actually the story I’d read that the actor who played Jane that was his idea because he thought he was such a disgusting character that he wanted to bring in something to endear the fans. And so they put him in this very silly sort of candy corn hat in one episode, just to try to like, you know, like me a little bit so I don’t get kicked off the show for being so vile of a character.

James Rocha 16:42
There’s also the episode where he,I think the episodes called ” Our Dear Mrs. Reynolds” is that the name of the episode.

Heather Warburton 16:51
Yeah, that’s with Saffron.

James Rocha 16:54
Yeah, yeah. Where he tries to trade his his gun for a woman. Yes. And he thinks that this is like a quid pro quo for him. He thinks this is something you can do. And there’s just something repulsive about him as a character, but he also has his moments of growth. And so I think at the same time, I think on the one hand, I think we are supposed to hate him. And I think we’re supposed to hate him and laugh at him, right? He’s supposed to be our kind of character that we’re mocking. But he also is growing. And so in the episode Jaynestown, which is one of my favorite episodes.

Heather Warburton 17:37
You mentioned both of the episodes I want to do a deeper dive on. Those are the two I wanted to mention.

James Rocha 17:44
Maybe I should wait because I’m about the spoil the ending.

Heather Warburton 17:47
No, Go ahead

James Rocha 17:49
But in Jaynestown, he Jayne finds they go to this planet where Jayne is he’s a hero and he doesn’t understand why he’s a hero. And, the moment of growth is when he sees a moment of pure self sacrifice. And it’s not that he accepts this person’s self sacrifice. It’s just that he can’t figure out where self sacrifice comes from. And it bothers him that he can’t figure it out. Because like I said, a libertarian perspective. There’s nothing morally you should do. That’s not for yourself. Right? And so when he sees someone sacrifice themselves for Jayne, who’s a failed hero, he can’t understand how that’s even possible. And so it’s kind of like, that’s a great moment of the show that shows us Jayne is a libertarian, who also realized he’s coming and he’s having moments of realization, that libertarianism doesn’t actually make sense.

Heather Warburton 18:47
Yeah, he definitely sort of has a moment of self reflection in that episode, even though it’s not extremely long lived, but he definitely has that moment of, maybe not my philosophy isn’t 100% maybe another I need to incorporate a little bit more. Um, I wanted to go back to Heart of Gold, the episode that you mentioned. And again, I would say that episode is a very strong critique of capitalism, because kind of the bad guy in that episode. I mean, he’s planning to kill a bunch of these women to take something he believes is his, which is his child. But also, of women in this episode are critiquing him because he’s hoarding all this wealth. So he can kind of be the John Wayne cowboy type thing, when he could be using that to help all the struggling people on the planet. And he chooses to hoard his wealth is one of the other main, like things that they say about him and critique him for that and he is definitely portrayed as a vile character.

James Rocha 19:52
Yes, and I that’s a great point you’re making. And I think that’s, that’s one of the things that’s wonderful about science fiction and why as a political philosopher, I get really into science fiction, because they create these worlds and the worlds are developed around an idea. And then they have our main characters that are heroes visit the world. And then the ideas set in motion. And we’re asking what is that idea like? What happens in that idea? And so to go back to the Heart of Gold as you’re discussing it, the the I think his name is Rance Burgis, and Rance is the is the bad guy on on the planet. But the whole planet is set up on around the idea that Rance has, he’s gotten all the money of the planet. And so he makes all the rules for the planet. It’s basically a libertarian ideal state, it’s the person who got all the money first gets to make all the rules.

And so everything around him is turning to dirt. It’s everything’s going to hell, but he’s happy because he has toys, and he enjoys his toys. And just that idea is kind of giving us a sense of us. It’s science fiction letting us see what is the theory come to life. Here’s libertarianism playing out to its ultimate level. One person gets all the money and they get toys, and they have nothing else, and everyone else is miserable. And there’s a question of why would this be a good theory? Why is this a good idea? And clearly the show is depicting that and wants us to see him automatically as a villain. Even though from a libertarian perspective, he’s played by the rules and he won.

Heather Warburton 21:45
Right and I assume that was Joss Whedon’s goal. This show was making people think about the effects of things like this, like it’s an entertaining show, he set out to entertain. But Joss Whedon has a lot of you know, he’s a very strong feminist, and a lot different things. So these episodes were constructed in such a way as to make you have or hopefully have these discussions. You know, it wasn’t just to entertain and we’re over analyzing things.

James Rocha 22:13
Yes, exactly. And I think one of the, and going back to the sex workers, because that shows about sex workers, who because they’re on this world that’s run by libertarian, they have no rights. Whereas Inara is a sex worker who she has stronger rights than everyone around her to protect her and make sure that she’s able to, to function in her job. And so there’s this kind of really interesting contrast between how sex workers are treated under capitalism versus how sex workers would be treated under a system where rights were respected and people were recognized regardless of the work they did.

Heather Warburton 22:50
Yeah, that’s an excellent point. And you know, I think that you know, and this is an episode I’m planning to do in the near future, I’m still looking for a perfect guest for that about sex workers are workers. They are no different. That’s their job that they have. And if you remove puritanical morality out of it and sex workers are workers and deserve to unionize, they deserve the same rights every worker deserves. And he definitely set up sort of a dichotomy there of over exaggerating to the certain points. But you know, like, it’s definitely setting up an interesting dichotomy of where are we today in society, versus where should we be as far as how we treat sex workers and all workers in general, which brings us to Jaynestown which definitely touches on worker rights deeply.

And then again, this is a perfect critique of capitalism, in a song that one of them sings, one of the they’re called Mudders, and they harvest mud and the are indentured servants practically slaves. They get, you know, pennies, and one of them sings a little song and Ode to Jayne because he accidentally dropped this money of you know, that the Magister was taking all of the value of their labor and giving them like a nickel back. Which is capitalism. That’s how capitalism works.

James Rocha 24:17
Yes, and what great about that show, is that there’s a sense in which the Mudders need Jayne to be a hero. But then there’s a sense in which, So over the course of the show, they end up finding out that Jayne did not purposely drop the money his ship was going down. So he had to get rid of the money because it was weighing down the ship. So it was just a matter of survival for him. And so he had no interest in leaving the money behind and he’s not a hero. And part of the great thing about that show is that the mudders are growing out of their dependence on a hero figure. And so there is a sense of even when we’re trying, when we’re trying to organize when we’re trying to work together, we do often still have that mindset of hierarchy. And we look for heroes. And the mudders have accidentally found a bad hero. But that in a way can help them because once they give up off having a hero, they can organize around themselves and not look, not look upwards, as if heroes need to be above us. So there’s something wonderful about they found a hero who’s clearly not a hero, and that’s going to help them get away from relying on heroes.

Heather Warburton 25:34
And in essence, that’s kind of the whole show, you know, Mal is the hero, but he’s not a hero for say, like, he’s kicking people into engines. You know, like, he’s not a classic hero. He is a working class guy in essence, and he’s not.. he has a moral code, but it’s very much his own moral code. So I think there is throughout the whole series that’s a you know, there’s some attacks on what’s considered a hero versus what’s a really a hero?

James Rocha 26:04
I think one of the ways in which this really comes across is there’s a couple of times where Shepherd Book, who he’s in a way he’s represented as a religious character on the show, but he’s a fake religious character. And he’s lying about being a shepherd. So that that in itself is very interesting that that he’s not really who he pretends to be. But yeah, he’s also the moral conscience of the show as a fake shepherd. And so there’s two times that they have a conversation where Shepherd Book asks Captain Mal why he did the right thing on different occasions and there’s always that conflict where Mal is. He sees himself in a certain libertarian vein, but then he does the right thing in a way that libertarians can’t analyze within their moral their their limited moral system. And Mal never is able to answer why he does the right thing.

So for example, In, in The Train Job, they steal medicine from people who need it because they had a contract. Where were Mal did not ask what they were stealing. He just took the contract. And they went and stole the medicine. And so at the end of the episode, now gives the medicine back. But on a libertarian perspective, he consented to steal the medicine. It was a job, he took the contract. So from a libertarian perspective, there’s no reason for him to give the medicine back. But when Mal gives the medicine back, and they asked him, you know, I could see how you could have other options rather than to give us this medicine back. But Mal, just thinking about the sick people says, No, there weren’t any other options. But that is like a pure moment of morality. That’s not within the libertarian set. And so, Mal is constantly growing, but he can’t really analyze how he’s growing and Shepherd Book is constantly pointing that out to him. And so Mal kind of, like you said, He’s a hero in name only. But in reality, he’s trying to figure out who he is so that he can be a better person. But he doesn’t have a good sense of that, because he still thinks he’s a libertarian.

Heather Warburton 28:17
I think it’s interesting that you brought up Shepherd Book in that because you made me think of the one episode where Shepherd gets shot. And now above all else Mal hates the Alliance, which is sort of the central power or authority. That’s his, you know, the crux of the show. He really dislikes the Alliance. And he has to go into the heart of an alliance ship because of Shepard. Like he’s doing kind of the ultimate self sacrifice there. Of this is the most outrageous thing I can think of doing, but it’s part of my crew, you know, like, I gotta take him so he doesn’t die. So there’s that you know, Shepard often seems to be set up in that position that you’re, you know, have pointed out.

James Rocha 28:55
And Simon as well because Simon, is Simon and his sister River, they’re aboard Mal’s ship. But they’re they’re the ones who are most wanted by the Alliance. So part of what keeps the show going is that the Alliance is constantly after Simon and River who are on Mal’s ship. And even though Mal would be wanted, the Alliance doesn’t really care about Mal. They don’t care about anyone else on the ship as much as they care about Simon and River. And Shepard is always pointing out to Mal “you don’t even like them”. Simon and River are a pain in your butt. They annoy you, and they aren’t even really paying you enough to be transported. And that’s one of those occasions where Mal can’t really explain why is he doing so much work constantly having the Alliance catch up to him and try to capture him just because these two people were on the ship who he doesn’t even like, and so in a way the whole show is about this one sacrifice that Mal was making to protect two people he doesn’t like. That he really doesn’t owe anything to because they didn’t really pay him and and and yet he can’t understand himself why he keeps doing it since he’s constantly in danger because of these two people.

Heather Warburton 30:15
Yeah, I think that’s a, you know, a great you know, point of he’s trying to discover himself throughout the course of the show like everybody else knows who he is, but he doesn’t seem to know who he is throughout the course of the show. So I wanted to close with one question. This is a theory… now I admit there had been a few glasses of wine before I came up with this theory. But everyone I know is a combination of two Firefly character. If you were to describe yourself as a combination of two Firefly characters, who would you pick and why?

James Rocha 30:47
I mean, I’m probably lying I mean, I’m gonna pick someone I’m gonna pick people I want to pick as opposed to the truth, but that probably is because I’m on my own self journey to discover who I am. But I want to I want to pick Shepherd Book and Kaylee, and I want to pick them because they are the two characters who are most trying to, to lead the other characters on a moral journey. And in a way, that’s my job because I teach morality to students. And so I would like to believe that I’m leading my students on a moral journey. But again, maybe I’m just overselling myself. Maybe I’m a little bit of Jayne and there’s a selfish part of me. And I don’t want to admit it. So yeah, but I hope I’m closer to Kaylee and Shepherd. Who did you say

Heather Warburton 31:44
I said, I was Mal and Kaylee. I’m far from a perfect person. You know, but I have a very strong I definitely feel I have some of Kaylee’s sense of you know, strong this Right, this is the good thing to do look out for others, but you know, I’m flawed in the same time. And you know, Mal is a very flawed character, but he’s also a good character. Yeah. And you know, when I’m out in the streets like going toe to toe with a Nazi I’m not a nice person. You know, but I’m not a nice person for a good very reason.

James Rocha 32:23
That makes sense

Heather Warburton 32:29
See, I might be on to something with my theory here, even though it did involve a few glasses of wine. All right, we are about running out of time. So I want to give you a last word to talk a little bit about whatever you want. You know, talk about philosophy, talk about economics, talk about Joss Whedon and why he’s cool.

James Rocha 32:51
Well, I guess I’ll do a plug of my book because that that’s what people do. So me and my wife. I’m James Rocha, my wife, Mona Rocha, we wrote a book “Joss Whedon, Anarchists” and the whole book kind of takes each of his main shows and pursues an anarchist line with each show. So so we use Angel to critique structural violence. We use Firefly for this very debate the anarchist capitalist versus the anarchist left and and we use at the end, we come around to Buffy and talk about anarchist feminism. And so I hope if people are interested in how Joss Whedon might, I think maybe unintentionally, that might connect to anarchism. I hope they take a look at that book.

Heather Warburton 33:38
So I’m definitely going to pick that book up. You know, I didn’t get a chance to read it before the show because I didn’t know it existed until about 45 minutes ago, but I’m definitely going to pick it off and I’m looking forward to reading it. Is it on Amazon and local bookstores.

James Rocha 33:53

Heather Warburton 33:54
Anything else before the before we close it out for today?

James Rocha 33:59
No, I had a really good time. I’m talking to this was a really fun, fun,

Heather Warburton 34:02
I really enjoyed talking to you know, I love geeking out and I love talking about communism. So if I can talk about geeky communism, it’s just a win win for me. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you to my listeners, thank you so much for joining us and sitting through me geeking out for the past half hour. So, you know, here at New Jersey Revolution Radio, we cover a lot of different topics. And I hope even though we had a lot of fun with this episode, you know, that maybe give you some things to reflect on a little bit about society, communism and just the destructive nature of runaway capitalism and how there isn’t a future a real future for us under capitalism. And we like to cover things that you’re probably not going to hear in the mainstream media. And, you know, it’s just me and my business partner, and we’re trying to do this all on our own right now. So we really need to keep asking you for help. We don’t get corporate sponsorship for these kinds of things. So if you could go on to our website and click on that Donate button. Even if it’s only a couple of dollars a month, it really does help us make ends meet. And remember the Future Is Yours to create, go out there and create it.

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